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Post by Fate on Jan 25, 2006 12:59:17 GMT -5
Moved this discussion from the other thread. ;D
Ronin Europe does pay more for gas than the US but this due to taxes by the Euorpean governments than oil prices and oil companies.
I'm curious about what others around the world are paying for gas.
BTW-1 gallon = 3.7854118 liter
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Post by Tremor on Jan 25, 2006 13:56:01 GMT -5
It's 2.29 or 2.39 a gallon here right now. I'd hate to be paying more for it, i think this is too much!
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Post by ronin on Jan 25, 2006 13:58:04 GMT -5
Yeah I know how much a gallon is and I know that we have huge taxes on oil. About 70% of our gas price is tax. Total price per gallon is 6 USD.
Which make us no 1 in the world as far as I know.
Add to that over 30% income tax on your salary...
All this tax money is supposed to go to schools and free medicare, cheaper medicines, but the truth is that more than half of sweden's budget goes to people that are out of jobs and in many cases choose not to find new work, since it's more profitable for them to continue to be unemployed...
Sorry about he off topic rant, but rather here than out in the streets trying to kill incompetent politicians.
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Post by Fate on Jan 25, 2006 14:43:09 GMT -5
Sorry about he off topic rant, but rather here than out in the streets trying to kill incompetent politicians. Is it Sweden or Switzerland where each house hold has to have a gun? Just wondering....  BTW taxes are high here as well. My federal tax is 28%. Then social secuirty is 7.5%. State is about 5%. Then 7-10% sales tax, property tax, etc. And we do not get free medical! And to get it back on topic, I think our taxes account for around 30% of the price of out gas. Thats federal gas tax, state gas tax, and local. |
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Post by ronin on Jan 25, 2006 14:51:36 GMT -5
It's switzerland that has extremely liberal gun laws - not that I think they are required to have a gun, but there is no control whatsoever for buying guns there. Sweden have very strict gun laws, especially for hand guns.
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 25, 2006 15:35:54 GMT -5
This is a very fun topic! Many rants to be had. Here's mine: American car manufactures! When the decade began it was clear that gas prices were going up and American consumers wanted more fuel efficient cars. Japanese carmakers read that trend and made really efficient traditional and now some hybrid cars. American automakers bought up companies that made really inefficient cars and continued to focus their product line on gass guzzlers. (oh, they also spent millions lobbying congress to ensure we consumer's didn't get the benefit of higher efficiency standards for cars and light trucks.) They, of course, lost market share and now are laying off tens of thousands of employees.  |
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Post by ronin on Jan 25, 2006 16:07:47 GMT -5
About car manufacturers; I watched the news a few days ago and the CEO of GM (I think it was) was standing there and having great faith in the "american consumers" and GM's cars, despite the fact the company is one the brink of bankruptcy. Reminds me of Ken Lay a few days before Enron crashed...
A good thing about sweden is that hybrid cars is tax detuctable for five years and the insurance is paid for. I'm getting a hybrid Toyota or Lexus next.
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 25, 2006 16:18:16 GMT -5
We only get the tax credit for the year you buy the hybrid. I read the other day that Denver is considering offering free parking at meters for people with hybrids. I sure hope that catches on in Chicago! I've been dreaming of buying a Toyota Prius for about a year now and that would definitely seal the deal!
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Post by ronin on Jan 25, 2006 16:22:01 GMT -5
Yeah Prius is on top of my list as well. And since I have a company I can lease one for just over 200$ per month. However a Lexus 450H is a bit more...  |
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Post by Fate on Jan 25, 2006 17:07:25 GMT -5
I agree. American car manufactuers need to be jumping ahead. However they are making billions selling big SUVs/Trucks and it is hard to think about long term strategies when CEO's only have to make the companies profitable for a a few years to get thier Golden Parachute.
BTW - Ford has a nice Hybrid Escape I would love to own.
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 25, 2006 17:26:26 GMT -5
I don't think they're making so much on the big SUV's these days. In the interviews with the workers who are getting laid off I've heard quotes like "we make trucks here that aren't so fuel efficient."
My own family is an interesting example. My step-mom used to OWN a GM dealership. They were very much a buy American only family. Dad owned a tahoe, stepmom bought a cadi. Sold the cadi because it was rear wheel drive and they live in MN. Got a ford escape. Sold the tahoe this year and replaced it with..... a mazda 6. 9 times out of 10 the escape is in the driveway and the mazda gets driven.
I think this is this the trend. Downsizing of vehicles. That said, I DO applaud Ford for finally getting the hint and offering hybrids. Hooray for learning your lesson!
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Post by Asya on Jan 25, 2006 17:46:00 GMT -5
For me purchasing a car is more about style than anything else. Consider my round-trip commute of 40 miles a day. Even if I went from a 20 mpg vehicle to a 40 mpg vehicle the yearly savings would just be about $1,000 a year (based on $3/gallon). That represents less than 1/10th to 1/30th of the cost of a new car. My auto insurance is more than that. So I'll continue to drive my gas guzzler until it falls apart, because it just doesn't make economic sense for me to trade based on current gas prices.
There are others out there who do have a much longer commute, and for them the pump pinch is of a larger concern and a larger dollar figure. For those it may be economically viable to switch to a more fuel efficient vehicle. Just not for me.
So back to the style thing. U.S. auto sales are failing for me because there isn't a new car I'd like to drive. Sorry, but those boxy K-cars went out with the 80's, and the beige bomb 4-doors... yawn. How many more Camery look-alikes can we really take? Why would I want to buy an expensive US box, when I can get the same foreign box for less price?
The US companines have to realize that they cannot compete making boxes, and as a result have to look for market differentiators. The US does have some potential. Like them or not, PT has pizazz, the new Mustang has mojo, and the Solstice is just seeexy. But that's it for US style, that's why they fail.
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Post by TheUncleanOne on Jan 25, 2006 17:53:42 GMT -5
With Inda's commute of 160 miles total, daily, we look for fuel economy, but the current generation of Hybrids are out of our price range... so we have a respectable, base model Corolla, and a 4 cylinder s10 for getting fence supplies and such....
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 25, 2006 18:02:42 GMT -5
Asya, your point about style is well taken. A lot of the analysis I've seen is about the lack of style innovation dooming US automakers. (My rant was about only gas guzzling so as to stay on topic with high gas prices.)
The place where I think your calculation breaks down is if your 40 mile commute is in stop and go traffic (like my 10 mile commute would be here if I were driving.) Under those circumstances, my understanding is the hybrid really shines because the stop and go feeds the battery and you use even less gas. If your commute is smooth sailing, then I believe you're right that the extra cost of the car isn't made back for several years in gas savings.
But I must say, I think the Prius IS sexy. Keyless entry, keyless start, cool computery screen, futuristic gauges, AND a practical hatchback! I don't usually get giddy over cars (I <3 my honda civic) but the new Prius is hawt. ;D
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Post by Fate on Jan 25, 2006 18:09:56 GMT -5
I must point out that Ford is sending the jobs overseas. The problem with making cars in the US is you just can't pay someone 36 dollars an hours to make cars while they can either totally automate it or pay someone 2 dollars an hour. Part of the problem has to fall on the Unions who still fight automation at plants. Its not a surprise that the Japanese when they open Assembly plants in the US do it in the South where Unions are not very popular.
As far as boxy cars Honda makes the new Mini whatever that is basically a square piece of plastic. The Japanese are also making big trucks and big SUVs now.
As for a good looking, anyone see the new Dodge Charger? It looks cool! And the 2005/2006 Mustang I think could arguably be the best looking Mustang ever.
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Post by ronin on Jan 26, 2006 3:22:29 GMT -5
I think the point (at least for people like me outside the US) is that a lot of new american and european cars compared to japanese cars, is overpriced and often inferior in quality (except for Cadillac). Eurppean and american manufacturers rely too much on brand and exclusivity as well as patriotism (most sold car in sweden is Volvo). They are simply feeding ego's and selling a lifestyle.
The japanese manufacturers have a different strategy. They make cheaper cars (even luxury brands like Acura and Lexus are cheap compared to european and american counterparts) but the big thing in japan is durability. They have a well thought out strategy that their cars will have virtually no faults for about 10 years, then they will start breaking down. Since most people only have cars for 4 or 5 years, they will never see this. And since they are so durable, companies like toyota can have really generous service agreements. My dad has a Corolla T-sport and he has an 8-year service from Toyota on that car for example.
a bit off topic, but related to the question of automation:
Anyone remember the steel tolls, that were enforced when Bush jr got in to the white house?
They took out tremendous tolls on korean steel, so that US companies were forced to buy american steel that was twice the price and of less quality, because the american steel still were "man-made".
For an outsider not living in US, things like that really pisses me off. I belive in free markets, but yet the "freest" and most liberal market in the world continually make these laws to protect american jobs and manufacturers. Same thing with the US government telling the EU that they unjustly protect and support (which they do) Airbus, when the US government themselves is the only reason that Boeing haven't gone bankrupt yet.
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Post by Fate on Jan 26, 2006 10:59:00 GMT -5
Then you should really be mad at the Japanese who have one of the most protected economies in the world. I too beleive in free trade and would like to see all trade barriers lifted. I beleive the European Union has some tarrifs as well..... As for quality of cars, I was just looking at a report on money.cnn.com on realiability among car makers and the U.S. cars were up there with the japanese. money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/american_cars/index.htmI had a ford pickup truck 11 years and except for the fuel gage it never had a problem. I also have had a Jeep for almost 5 years that has never been in the shop (besides oil changes). I also have a Ford Minivan that did have break problems once in 8 years. By the way I would buy something besides American cars. I looked at the Haundai Sante Fe and almost bought one. The only problem was that my head was about an inch away from the ceiling. And at 6', I'm average height for an American male. Japanese cars I will not buy because of the strict trade controls and thousand of lobyists they send to Washington. For example, Arakansas where I live gorws a lot of rice. The Japanese government would not let us sell rice over there becaue they said it was too different from the normal rice in Japan. Now, we know it was to protect the Japanese farmers. The same for beef, oranges, etc. Hmmm. we are way off topic now....I see that oil prices are up a little. The rich get richer.... |
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 26, 2006 11:02:13 GMT -5
I agree Ronin. I mean, certainly there is no doubt that American workers are more expensive than in Mexico or China. That said, US automakers are not just losing profit margin, they're losing overal sales. In fact, the goal of this most recent round of layoffs is to reduce capacity. IE "make fewer cars." My beef is that they rested on their laurels for too long and then let themselves get outsold and out engineered. And now they blame the worker! And don't get me STARTED on the oil companies! (Off Topic-this kind of conversation is one of the things I really love about this guild. We can talk about more than just GW if we want. And we have so many smarty-pants around to chime in!) |
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Post by ronin on Jan 26, 2006 12:48:16 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with you Fate, the japanese economy is very protected and I already said that the EU have the same kind of support to companies (Airbus for example). However Sweden is much more effected by US trade than japanese (on a global scale the japanese economy is small compared to the US). I'm not saying that american or european cars are bad and break down, but as the article said, "Toyota has, by now, had a lifetime to cement its reputation among American consumers for nearly fool-proof quality". Btw I can't believe that the behemoth-like ford f-150 is the biggest selling Ford in the US... Yes Aeron let's start on oil companies aka the government!  |
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Post by Fate on Jan 26, 2006 14:16:45 GMT -5
Btw I can't believe that the behemoth-like ford f-150 is the biggest selling Ford in the US... What is really funny about the 150 is that a lot of peopel buy one and never really use it as a truck. You can easily spend 40k on one of the fancy ones. Its a good vehicle if you need a truck. And don't even get me started on people who ruin a good truck by turning them into low riders...... |
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 26, 2006 14:30:49 GMT -5
And don't even get me started on people who ruin a good truck by turning them into low riders...... Lowriders are just funny. As are the trucks with glass packed mufflers and the overly HUGE tires. Makes me giggle. |
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Post by ronin on Jan 26, 2006 14:51:14 GMT -5
One of the most stupid things I've seen was a "dubbed" Hummer with slick tires. I like trucks though, I would like a Toyota Hilux or a Cadillac Escalade. I like country music as well  |
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Post by Indagatrix on Jan 26, 2006 20:38:52 GMT -5
I feel the urge to be violent every time I see a Hummer. I just want to take my keys and press them ever so firmly against that gawd awful boxy exterior and scrape scrape scrape that paint off the sides. And the first time I saw a limo-Hummer IRL I was half tempted to turn around on I-40 and chase the mother-f**ker down and beat them about the head and shoulders. /blush I know it's not very nice -- and apologies if any of you own a Hummer -- I just think they are one of the worse/best examples of consumer gluttony of the last 30 years.  |
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Post by Eldarion on Jan 27, 2006 7:58:43 GMT -5
Yah, we be a nation (nay, a world) of consumers, eh? The SUV thing bugs me, too. I can't count the number of times I've seen a 100-pound woman driving a three-ton vehicle. Usually when she's backing out of a parking space WHILE TALKING ON HER CELL PHONE.
I'm no saint when it comes to environmental awareness (I drive a car with a V6), but, puhleeze, why does it seem like EVERYONE needs to drive a TANK?
A much-missed and vastly under-appreciated TV show, thirtysomething, had a real funny throw-away bit one time. The lead characters, quintessential yuppies Michael and Hope, were picking up his parents at the airport. As they were loading their luggage into Michael's SUV, his mom said, "I didn't know you lived in the mountains." Michael and Hope exchange a sheepish look. Too funny. (That show had GREAT writing.)
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Post by Fate on Jan 27, 2006 10:21:43 GMT -5
Yes it is a shame that those 4 wheel driive SUVs never leave the road. I know I have had mine off road at least once in 5 years. I do drive a small SUV, a jeep liberty, and I do tow a fishing boat from time to time (definitely not as much as I would like). Yes it is funny seeing people drive Tahoe's and Suburban's that do not have a need to pull a big trailer. I personally think their should be a law where you have to prove you need them. You know have a horse trailer or 6 kids. But then some group or another would be screaming that thier rights were being violated. "If they want to get 9 miles a gallon and destroy the environment and keep the price of oil (back on topic) high then they should be able to". It is like smoking (oops back off topic), please ban them in resteraunts. But then the ACLU would be there. One of America's problems (BTW the best country in the world even with all its problems ) is that it was founded by smugglers so we really don't like being told we can't have something. |
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Post by TheUncleanOne on Jan 27, 2006 11:34:14 GMT -5
Dropped $0.09 overnight to $2.08 this morning, could be back up this evening....
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Post by Fate on Jan 27, 2006 12:37:37 GMT -5
Leave it to X to bring it back on topic. Ours is still at 2.31 and hasn't moved in a week..
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Post by miriel Silverhand on Jan 27, 2006 15:18:43 GMT -5
It is oscillating between 3,75 to 4,00 CAD per gallon over here (3,15 to 3,36 USD), but I don't care too much because I walk to go to work in the winter and during summer I either take my motorcycle or my bicycle.
And my motorcycle drink between 40 mpg and 55 mpg depending on how hard I ride it.
A+
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Post by Aeron Serabien on Jan 27, 2006 15:25:07 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has brought up the tension with foreign policy and oil production. It's not just the middle east. Venezuela is making some interesting proposals to major cities in the US to try to get market share. I'll see if I can dig up the news story i'm thinking about.
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Post by ronin on Jan 27, 2006 15:30:16 GMT -5
I know what you are talking about Aeron, Venezuela and Hugo Chavez wants to sell cheaper oil to poor people in the US. The white house is not amused...
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