Experimental split

[miffic]

Just trying to write up a split build with whatever useful that comes to mind. I figured it's about time we started playing a lot more aggressively instead of trying to respond to whatever they do.

Offensive team will constantly attack the opposing guild hall while the defensive team will focus on maintaining flag control and defend our guild hall. Furthermore this would allow us to use team arena as a training ground (while it still exists...) and give us some time to clean up the build and get some practice in.

Also trying to keep this viable for when it's impossible to split, but we'll just have to see what we end up with here..

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Team layout and quick reference:
Offensive team
Primal rage warrior: OQYTgs4KZ6cgpIqoScv6n5nQAAA
Ranger:
Monk 1:

OR

R/A
E/D
Me/Mo: OQNDAastOak3GLoEsAaBTf0I


Split capable:
Whirling axe warrior: OQYTgs4KZ6cAvJqoScvSr4nQAAA
OR
Dev hammer warrior: OQgSE5JP81xCYZpYYZKqlkL
OR
Backbreaker assassin:

Domination mesmer: OQdDAqsjOutZQRwDoBmgiOBA
Water ele: OgBCsMzjScdwMe+mV3B0QAA

Defensive team:
Monk 2 (Healer): Player's healer preference otherwise build provided.
Owoj0wQ86QkENgaE+D3NRgQgrXA

Monk 3: Player's prot preference otherwise build provided.
Owoj8wQ86MzEBydVLqQ201k1LA

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Right so...

General strategy: We split.
They're spike: We split. They either fall back to take care of the lord or lose. Defensive team might be pushed back, it's vital that the offensive team drops the bodyguard and goes for the lord asap.
They're full pressure at flag stand: We split, run them around in circles, push for morale if required otherwise drop the lord and be done with it.
They split: We split. Defensive team is responsible for covering our own lord, offensive team will drop any defense they have and go for theirs.
We can't split due to map: We spli-...oh um, full team on stand. We'll just have to fight it out the old way, or at least until we can find a way to slip past the main team. Then we split.

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Detailed roles:


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Edit: Apologies, started writing it as a 4-4 split but after much thought, scrapped it and decided to re-write so we can have more variables.... Check back later!

[meanelliott]

i think the defensive team should have something like a backbreaker sin with a mesmer in addition to the two monks, or an equally threatening pair, so that the opponent cannot leave a single healer with their offense and maintain a gank, allowing them to commit more to fall on our offensive team.

[miffic]

Yep yep, that's the thought, a whirling axe warrior would ensure that stance monks and other stance users won't be able to keep that up and a domination mesmer would easily man handle a single monk, making them attempt to push our defensive team with two monks.

Originally we did consider a hammer warrior on the defensive team (ie. split capable) but the thought was that with the popularity of stances at the moment a hammer warrior would be heavily negated. We considered bringing a rigor on the mesmer, but making that work well with everything else that had to be on there to provide significant annoyance capabilities was an irritation. So I suppose we settled with a whirling axe warrior, probably with shock just so it's possible to down two monks if required (Primal rage warrior also has shock).

I believe there was also some discussion about making the mesmer even more mobile so it would chase around an additional monk (if it exists...) but I suppose we'll see what happens. In the scenario where they run three monks and two are in their guild hall, our mesmer would swap over to the offensive split.

We were considering a backbreaker assassin some time before too, but I think with the possibility that we might be forced to fight all as a team, the idea fell out somewhere. I'll add a possible backbreaker assassin back in just to keep it in mind.

[meanelliott]

another idea i thought you all might want to consider for the 5-3 split

defensive team:

d/e wounding strike, crippling sweep, zealous sweep, grasping earth, heart of fury, flame djinns haste, conjure flame, res sig

e/x blinging surge, shell shock, lightning bolt, lightning javelin, gale, aura of restoration, air attunement, res chant

me/e fevered dreams, fragility, ethereal burden, kitahs burden, hum sig, illusion of pain, drain enchantment, res sig

mo/x woh (fill in)

mo/x rc/pnh (fill in)





i basically copy/pasted this from the frag spike posted a while back and modified a few skillbars... i think it fits well with the 5-3 split because this 5 man defensive team can deliver a lot of pressure and an excellent spike as well as the ability to kill fleeing ganks, while keeping decent defense (bsurge, gale, cripple, hex snares) and functioning really well along side the 3 man team you guys are looking for since a BA ranger will add considerably to the fragspike when 8v8.

[meanelliott]

I've been brainstorming and am wondering, what would you guys think of running a glyph of renewal warder?

the nerf to ward melee over a year ago affected its duration and recharge and basicly took it out of play. with the current lack of reliable passive defense, im wondering if glyph renewals effective negation of ward melee's drawback makes it worth running. also to consider is earth magic's recently buffeomed ability to deal somewhat consistant knockdowns, the fact that earth magic doesn't rely on an elite to deal damage, and the additional utility options that become available with glyph of renewal.

thoughts?

[towershield]

Ebon Hawk, Stoning spamming could be good.

We need an offensive defense and defensive offense.

[meanelliott]

agreed. i think we should just send two burning arrow rangers and two ritualists on gank, and have 3 primal rage warriors and a monk/dervish runner defend our base.

[Ascalon Destroyer]

Elliot, in looking at your suggestion (combined with what Tower proposes) I feel like you would run into a few problems. I understand that no build is perfect, and its been years since I've played anything but monk in GvG, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

First, the cost of the glyph, ward against melee, ebon hawk and stoning would add up quick.

glyph + ward = 20 mana/15 seconds
ebon + stoning = 25 mana/5 seconds

That means for every 15 second cycle the entire mana cost is 70 (glyph + ward, ebon + stoning X2). That would significantly deplete any ele's energy. Assuming you're also running earth attunement you gain back 6 energy + 11 (.15*70 rounded up), or 17 energy. Additionally, energy regen would be 4 points every 3 seconds or 20 points for the cycle. That means the net energy of one 15 second cycle is -33. Without some other source of energy management (GoLE or Elemental Attunement), this build doesnt seem viable at full force.

Secondly, stoning is projectile based and the ward only blocks 50% of melee. This means we have a character whose offense depends on line of sight and the defensive measures our opponent runs and whose defense depends on our opponents using melee heavily. I'm not sure what the meta really looks like, but this one character would be far less useful against a team using aegis (or something similar) and pressure/degen/spell spike.

Finally, the wards only work in a limited area. This would require at least some of our team to pack up, potentially making us easy prey for AoE.

My goal is not to say that the character would not be useful - I think every GvG match I've been in runs 2 melee characters and uses them to apply deep wound. Additionally, a fairly regular knockdown from stoning could significantly interrupt monks or spikes. However, the build could benefit significantly from the other skills included.

As a side note, here are the other unconditional ranged options for creating weakness according to wiki:
Enervating Charge
Enfeeble/Enfeebling Blood/Enfeebling Touch
Wearying Spear

[meanelliott]

thanks AD, those were actually issues I meant to broach when I was first posting the idea, but held off doing because of a lack of math. I've done the math now, although I may have calculated some things a little bit differently than you. also I accounted for ward v melees duration at about 20 seconds instead of 15, and also calculated the effects of various energy management on the bar. finally, I calculated everything on net cost per minute basis.

key:
skill = net cost (cast cost*number of cast per minute-energy return from attunement)

glyph of renewal = 30 (5*6)
ebon hawk, stoning = 120 (25*8-48-72)
ward against melee = 27 (15*3-18)
earth attunement = 6 (10*1-4)
glowstone = -60 (5*7.5-15-82.5 gain from the skills effect)

brings us to 123 energy cost/minute for these skills. if an ele gains 80 energy/minute, he has still netted a loss of 43 energy/minute.

factor in glyph of lesser energy at 5 energy per cast, twice per minute, making the next two skills cost 0 (most likely ebonhawk and stoning) but still allowing the effect of attunement on these casts, the net energy loss of glyph lesser is -30 per cast, or -60 per minute. (15+10+6+4+15+10+6+4)

that brings us to a net GAIN of 17 energy/60 seconds for the build.

I think that could allow for ebonhawk/stoning to be cast closer to on recharge, instead of every 8 seconds, which is the recast time I used to calculate.

I haven't factored in weaponsets because I don't want my head to explode.

also, i want to clarify that block skills (gaurdian, stances, etc) do NOT affect the projectiles from spells.

[miffic]

Hmm, as much as I'd hate to say it though, I think the processes used to calculate energy cost/maintenance needs reconsideration.

Key issues being:
I'm uncertain if you accounted for the passive energy gain (+4 every 3 seconds)
A player is rarely constantly chain casting in active PVP.
When a player is casting one skill, all others are definitely not going to be used.

In short, I think the best way to not go crazy and really consider the energy for it is to build it and send it for a stroll through isle of the nameless (PVP). That way you can see how you go, and you can toy with the damage output a little.

Edit: Oh and I do intend on finishing this build sometime >.>

[Ascalon Destroyer]

Wow, Elliot, you really did quite a job there. Sounds like this could be a very viable build. Next time you catch me on, if you want to test it out, i'll pull out my monk and see how long you and I can last.

Miffic, you're certainly right in the counter points you present. I simply ignored the last two factors in favor of not making my head explode (as the phrase seems to be in here). You make a great suggestion that we should take a test run in PvP-land.